Very well written. I hadn't fully considered the "Earth" representing humanity in general in that scripture. Very true comments.

BTW: yes, there are trace amounts of pharmaceuticals in the water supply. I'm sure there are other chemicals and substances in our water supply. The scary thing is that we filter our water and clean it before consumption. I feel for those who live in places where the best that they can do is boil the water...

Those who defend using the A-bombs in Japan insist that it saved not only American lives, but also Japanese lives. As the Americans advanced in the Pacific, island by island, the Japanese (who viewed surrender as shameful) fought to the last man. The military thought the war could not end until Japan was taken, and their experience up to that time suggested even civilians would fight to the last person to prevent that from happening.

Mind you, I am not defending the bombs. But the context is also relevant.

Not sure about the access problems. Maybe you tried on a bad day. Yesterday for whatever reason access was slow as molassis and even I had trouble getting on. But such days are. thankfully, rare.

Sometimes I do word searches on various subjects, and perhaps try to comment. On various "private" networks (I'm not sure if that's the right word, but I mean places like MySpace) the requirements are so cumbersome that I give up in disgust. I hope Typepad does not pose those same barriers.

Yes, I was born in Rochester and have spent most of my life here. I'm married with two grown children. Very occassionally I will visit Java's downtown where I may even compose this blog. If you see the lama parallel parked on Gibbs Street, you'll know I am inside.

Yes, I know the excuse for sending the bomb, but the military always has some excuse for attacking. If they had put an equal amount of gray matter into wining the war in a peaceful manor, they would have come up with something. Who knows, maybe a new invention of peace instead of destruction. You can tell that I'm not to keen on war.

I don't care for MySpace, it's to clicky.

Oh, so your still in Rochester? I thought that you moved. Lama parallel parked, lol. That's a good one! Do you live on a farm? Do Lama's spit like camels?

Tom, I took the link to "this recent post," but I couldn't find the reference to the slain student body president in the comments there. In fact, I looked "everywhere" and couldn't find that reference. Did I say that to you in a personal e-mail perhaps?

Ah, I'd never noticed "next" before either (is that what you meant--you'd never noticed it?), so of course I didn't look in the next section of comments.

Yes, I referred to the student's being "in the wrong place" or "at the wrong time" to contrast that kind of "danger of chance," to which we are all subject, with the sense of danger I seemed to be experiencing as a member of a small minority of unbelievers in Easter (which membership was a free choice on my part and not a matter of chance). I'm not sure that my mention of the student's death "had absolutely nothing to do with the rest of [my] comment," but you made good use of it in your post. Your paragraph-concluding sentence is magisterial: "For this young woman, and loved ones, and the entire campus in proportion to how well they knew here, violence has 'ruined the earth.'" Chance has that destructive power, whether it comes in the form of "an act of God" (like a lightning strike), a pure accident (such as a fatal automobile wreck), or random murder (unpremeditated killing of a stranger). I classify random murder in this because of the fact that random murders are going to happen (statistically), and whether the victim is you or me or the student is largely a matter of chance, of being "in the wrong place" or "at the wrong time."

I didn't answer the last comment because I didn't quite understand it. We don't think that when lightening strikes God personally is hurling the bolt from heaven! (like Tim Burton's Martians making sure that the falling Washington Monument lands squarely on the fleeing tourists.)

As for animals, I don't know.

As for dying stars and planets, I'll agree with you that it's a horrible tragedy once we have evidence that any of them are inhabited by "animals as worthy as those on our own planet," but not before.

After I wrote this article, I split it up into two parts. The second part is in the hopper, but I'll post it next, after I get Eliot Spitzer out of the way. It will be more pertinent to the points you've raised, though you probably won't like it any better.

" But I supposed that you NECESSARILY do..."

I don't. Nor do I see how that's an inevitable conclusion.

There are times one may not use to the full extent possible either their knowledge or power.

Between technology and private investigators, for example, it is no doubt possible for you to track your wife's every move. But you don't do it (I hope) out of regard for her privacy, dignity, right of self-determination, etc.

Similarly, if your son left the family home on the avowed career path of slaughtering animals, you might choose not to use your "power" to bail him out should he get himself into a jam. Especially if you had no evidence that he intended to turn aside from his course. He might also never learn of the $10 million inheritance you were going to leave him.

You must keep in mind our contention that the human race has estranged itself from God with disasterous results. As they willfully pursue a "suicide" course, should he nonetheless make sure that no harm comes to anyone?

As pure speculation, suppose that God knew of cool technology by which no person would ever get struck by lightening. Give it to humans now and it's benefits will be ignored so as to focus on possible weapon potential, just like it's been with nuclear power. Perhaps he will keep it to himself for a more peaceful time.

The animal rights movement is a very recent development...perhaps only twenty years old? I don't believe atheists have embraced it to any greater extent than have believers. I am more matter of fact regarding the food chain than are you...including humans being at the top of it. (though occasionally a tiger or something gets its revenge) Of course, I am troubled when I hear of wanton cruelty in taking animal life, but not necessarily the taking of life itself when it is for the purpose of obtaining food. You have the follow-thru for your convictions.....that is, you are a vegetarian, and you can only be admired for practicing what you preach. However, all of prior mankind and nearly all of current mankind do not preach it. We do have the guidance in our faith that, if a Christian chooses to hunt, that they use what kill for food. That is, we believe it is wrong to take animal life "unnecessarily," or just for sport.

The only item on your final list I can comment on is animal sacrifice. It is true that in OT times God directed animal sacrifice for various occasions.

There is also the single instance of Jesus being put to death by a then common method of execution which man, not God, invented. He did so to accomplish goals which you do not agree with.

Tom, I feel a little bad about the downward spiral of our interchange here. I regret it. But we in fact have such divergence of belief or view or assumption, it's hard to find common ground. Even as I re-read your last comment (above), I see in "It is true that in OT times God directed animal sacrifice for various occasions" a false statement. It is NOT true that "God directed animal sacrifice"--unless you mean that as shorthand for something like "The OT people's concept of God was that He directed them to sacrifice animals." I think that is probably true, very probably. But to me it's just an indication of how barbarous and primitive and fearful and superstitious those poor sods were.

And the difference between the OT concept of God and the NT concept does NOT show that "God grew up" or something like that, but that people became a little less barbaric, a little less primitive, but perhaps just as fearful and maybe even more superstitious.

And as you could no doubt see from my admission about wavering between "don't care" and "don't give a shit," my initial reaction to your comment about the age of the animal rights movement and the position of atheists as a group on that topic (implicitly vis-a-vis theists, as though you were trying to cast our PERSONAL interchange in terms of some global battle between believers, represented by you, and atheists, represented by me) was anger. I'm not exactly sure why your comment ticked me off so much, other than as seeming to regard me not as an individual but as a representative atheist. But maybe you were thinking I regarded you as "a representative theist." I mean, in the very interchange at hand, I gave numerous examples that don't even have anything (much, at this time in history) to do with Christianity but a whole lot to do with various aspects of Mohamedanism.

I possibly owe you an apology (and I doubt that you owe ME one). So, I apologize, and I'm dying for us to touch gloves and leave the gym for a while in favor of having a few beers or glasses of wine together. Somewhere shaded, maybe a park bench overarched by trees.

My dear Tom, Thanks for your cordial hospitality. May joy and good fortune in your life redound!

I wish I were a vegetarian, for that's where my heart lies. But I defer to my wife and honor the principle of marital accord over that of vegetarianism. I thought this was clear from my discussion of "New Ten Commandment" number whatever it was at the time I published the post referenced above somewhere.

You're perhaps right that I overstated the advance of "civilization" from barbarism to civility, certainly in terms of "ruining the earth" behavior, but also even when it comes to belief in God, for I think I stated some comments ago (to a different article) that, at least in terms of world population growth, there are probably more people on the planet today who "believe in God" than ever before, which obviously shows little advance in enlightenment. We may even not have advanced much beyond the view of Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679), who wrote that "...the life of man [is] solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." [Leviathan, Part 1, Chapter 13]

But again, neither these numbers nor the actual "state of civilization" (whether it has advanced much or not) proves anything about the existence of god or gods. Perhaps the most it demonstrates is that enlightenment is hard to win and the enlightened are destined always to be in a small minority. And maybe enlightenment is more a matter of luck than of any personal merit or virtue.

Nonsense! They're two entirely separate issues.

A jug for the water cooler can hold an impressive amount of water. But you can't pour it in all at once. The neck is small.

Similarly, the brain has far more capacity than it should for our brief lifetime. (Surely you don't get the sense your's is filling up....that you're close to running out of room) But you can't put it in all at once. And in the case of a long long long life, you don't have to.

Evening. Just thinking of you, Tom.

Would the eye (as discussed in the NY Times science article) be analogous to the water jug's small neck? Along the lines of, we'd have to look and look and look (for eons) to bring enough visual information into the brain to even begin to start to fill it? Is that part of what you're saying?

My wife and I are about to sit down and use a small bit of our brain capacity watching the movie "Sweenie Todd" (the new version, with Johnnie Depp).

Good cheer be thine!

It doesn't sound as if Mrs Sheepandgoats would like it.

Tom Sheep and Goats,
My brain has been fairly well filled to capacity at times, but a good nights sleep or a movie seems to let it settle, and then there is more room, increased neuron activity, and that great feeling of beginning with a fresh start. That fresh start is enlivened by one of the worlds greatest inventions; some folks might not call it that, but the general purpose digital controlled computer, with programmed executable instructions in read only memory and nondestructive random access memory, along with the necessary peripheral devices to store digital data, to display digital data and to allow hard copies of digital data lets us find what someone else might be thinking and trying to get us to understand. This device is the common PC, and wouldn’t you know it - This thing was made possible by the same people that brought us the “A Bomb”. Believe it or not it was for nearly the same reason. Computers and their uses has been around for some time and I will not bother this readership with the details of their development.

The following is applicable to submarine launched ballistic missiles (SLBM). We had built these nuclear bombs and had to be able to deliver them to an enemy anywhere on this earth. For accuracy and dependability of warhead impact it was found necessary to launch a computer with the missile to control missile flight and warhead release. The computers of the time even though they were smaller than what are referred to as first generation computers required too much missile power for propulsion and therefore limited the target range. The powers that controlled this whole process put out a memorandum to all hands, and that included the civilian contractors that had government contracts to build all the devices necessary to maintain nuclear weapons and continue to make them ready for fleet usage. The memorandum basically stated that no electronic digital hardware for strategic weapons would be considered by the Navy unless that hardware was constructed with integrated circuits. That manufacturing process of electronic circuitry has become the standard of computer manufacturing today, and without the money paid by the taxpayers of this great country and the need to possibly deliver nuclear weapons to any area of the earth the PC would not exist today. Oh, by the way, as a taxpayer of this country, should you, as well as every other taxpayer, be considered one of the ruiners of the earth? You have afterall helped to finance this effort.

There is a lot of truth in what you say about “ruining those who ruin the earth”. There is no nation or organization on the earth that can make the decision on who to ruin for the conditions that man has imposed on the earth. If God decides to take care of the ruiners the way he did last time, or in a similar manner, nearly everyone will be in serious trouble. God will be wiping out a lot of folks that are good bad or indifferent. And will he still spread the word that he loves us? I find no solace in that rationalization for some reason.

I also spent much of my childhood cringing under a school desk doing the duck and cover drill, and covering our eyes to prevent eye damage. These were all preventive measures that were prescribed at the time so that is what did. A lot of folks built fallout shelters and stocked them with life sustaining supplies, they filtered the air, provided a good water source for their family and did the kinds of things that might help them to survive what they considered to be end of humanity, should that bomb be dropped. In general most people would have sat and wrung their hands and would have gone like the lambs to slaughter if a nuclear bomb had been dropped.
We are the only country to ever use nuclear weapons and I feel that it was justifiable at the time, for the reasons that have been stated thousands of times. Since the first use of nuclear weapons there has been a number of times when politicians have contemplated their use against an enemy, I feel certain that the day will come when nuclear weapons are used again. I can only hope that time will never come to be. We are dealing with a world that consists of some countries that would kill all of us, and what should we do with these people? They will no doubt use a nuclear weapon at some time if we allow them to do that, If it can be determined that these countries have the means and the desire to use these weapons we should strike first. Let me point out that I am not saying use nuclear weapons but we should strike their facilities with a maximum force of conventional weapons, before it is too late for thousands maybe millions of our citizens.

I chose to try to learn what nuclear warfare really meant by enlisting in the US Navy and helping to control the actions of those that might threaten our nation with nuclear weapons, I spent the largest part of my Naval career in the effort to stop or restrain the USSR from using nuclear weapons. For those of you that do not know what the Cold War was all about; there were many aspects of that more or less bloodless conflict and I am only privy to one part of, and that part was the Fleet Ballistic Missile Submarine effort. It was that effort of the United States to present a declaration of mutual assured destruction (MAD) for any nation that might threaten the United States with nuclear weapons. We the United States promised the nations of the world that we would never initiate a first strike again with nuclear weapons, but any nation launching a first strike against the United States would be annihilated by nuclear weapons. There has been since 1960 United States nuclear powered Submarines that are able to point missiles and impact targets with nuclear warheads anyplace in the world and believe me they stay hidden from any other ship and ready to launch missiles as commanded. I completed 7 strategic deterrent patrols in Soviet waters in the 1970’s on one of those Submarines. Each patrol was 70 days, and we had to stay submerged and undetected but close enough to cover all of our targets 100% of the time. This effort has been going on since 1960 and will continue into the unforeseen future. I sleep better at night knowing that my Shipmates are out there protecting us. Whoever reads this should also sleep better knowing that we have created what might be known as a “Mexican stand off” and it prevents our enemies from attacking us. Are we the ruiners? I do not know but we have been the savior for nearly the last 60 years. I know that counts for nothing if we ever have to launch the first missile.

WMM

Tom Sheep and Goats,
It is nice of you to bring up all the fictional things that have occurred over the last 60 years or so, and even though they are rather frightening to many individuals, none of those tales; whether it was by Bradbury or Serling or anyone else, that was successful in occupying the mind through the boob tube even came close to reality. I like all that stuff these folks produced but when I shut the tv off it is gone. Anything that the little mind might conjure up after that is not real, please pass that on to all that you know. I thank you and the readership.
WMM

Tom Sheep and Goats,
The way I see it is everyone in this world has an assigned job, many folks do not do their assigned job for many reasons but I did not have any blinders on when I chose my life’s work, I thought it was the right thing to do; to help in the containment of the enemies of our country. We were all leery and worried even though much of the information that was spread around by our country was propaganda. From the time I enlisted in the Navy in 1954 until this present time 2 US Navy nuclear powered Submarines have been lost, the USS Thresher which was lost on sea trials was lost with all hands due to a number of mechanical failures, and the USS Scorpion. The US Navy put out the word that the USS Scorpion had been sunk by a Soviet Submarine, even though the Navy found that was not true they continued to keep that theory in circulation to keep us Submariners on our toes, for the next 30 some years we on Subs operated as if the Soviets were an extreme danger to us. And as I had pointed out in an earlier e-mail we had to operate in Soviet waters, to keep primary targets in range, and Soviet Subs were prevalent at all times. All that we and our Boats went through during those times was highly classified, the only thing any of us could say was “I can neither confirm nor deny” and we lived by that in those days. That was almost 50 years ago when the Scorpion was lost with all hands and since that time the classification of those events and what we did on operations has been removed. The rules change for the military after a period of time but I feel we as Sailors did a good job not letting anyone know what was happening in our world and that was required at the time.

There are some in this world with maniacal power that could have made mistakes and commanded the launch of nuclear missiles. There are safeguards built in the system to prevent an inadvertent missile launch, but there is no certainty that this will never happen. Fleet Ballistic Missile Submarines that are still out there on patrol continuously are unable to accidentally initiate a missile launch. One person whether it is the Captain or his next in command the Executive Officer or the officer in charge of weapons launches the Weapons Officer or any subordinate on the Submarine could not initiate a missile launch.

You, Tom Sheep and Goats, on the other hand have taken on a job that requires you to bear witness and tell all the things you know to any who will listen and if they do not listen you will tell them anyway. There is nothing wrong with that philosophy either but I normally just choose to roll my eyes and give you folks a blank look as if I have been overwhelmed by your message, but I do stand and listen generally. We have an old saying in the Navy “you throw much s--- against a bulkhead some of it has to stick”, so I usually exit the scene before it starts sticking. By the way, Tom, we had during my tenure in the Navy many individuals that were removed from the “Reliability Program” that kept records on each individual involved in every aspect concerning nuclear weapons, some washed out of training, some were judged to have lost mental capacity, drinking or even infidelity caused people to be removed from the program. The biggest cause was individuals stating that they did not believe in MAD anymore. But I never heard of any Sailor being removed from the program because he felt he was a ruiner of the earth.
WMM

well done commentary. Im a Jahovah's Witness and realize the very thing that pollutes the earth the most is greed and lack of love for fellow man but it still has to be recognized that we can do so much better. We cant walk away living on this earth without taking some of its contents. Cant we respect life more, recycle, preserve and care for animals as directed in the garden of eden?